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Dec 24, 2009, 12:47 AM // 00:47
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#61 | ||||||
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wrocław, Poland
Guild: Midnight Mayhem
Profession: Me/
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two things should be changed in pve, imho (well, maybe more and more specific stuff, but those are the crucial ones): FC should be at least of some use now (thinking synergy with skills from other lines or mes pve-only, like buffing back and linking CoP to FC) and the recharge times of most skills should be lowered for pve. mesmers are unbalanced - they seem to be designed for pvp while their pve side was almost totally ignored. Quote:
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Dec 24, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59
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#62 | |||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2009
Profession: R/
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Mesmers definately need a buff. But, dervs and (to a lesser extent) rangers need buffs more. And no, I'm not saying that because they're my pet classes (I don't even have a derv).
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Dec 24, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25
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#63 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jan 2007
Guild: Hey Mallyx [icU]
Profession: Me/
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to the OP,
Though mesmer is mostly all I play, I firmly believe it is a better secondary class than a primary. To this, I mean all of the skills the mesmer uses that are deemed "useful" are all non-fast cast attributes, allowing all classes to borrow from the mesmer tool belt. The mesmer needs more skills that are based on the fast cast attribute so other classes are less likely to take advantage of those skills and gives the Mesmer a more "meaningful" place in the game. This was done with the ele by having non E-storage skills tied to the E-storage attribute. I would love to see this done with the mesmer. Fast cast is nice, ut when there are no worthwhile skills attached to the fast cast attribute, who really cares how nice it is. The benefits are better reaped by using Mesmer as a secondary profession in PVE. |
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Dec 24, 2009, 02:35 AM // 02:35
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#64 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Mar 2008
Profession: Me/
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In some harder areas you have conditions and hexes that can hinder physical based groups. Mesmers can run as cleaners along with SoH.
PUGs tend to have enough damage, but they still are known for failing. Extend Conditions and Fevered Dreams takes care of that. Mesmers have very aggressive AP builds and extra synergy with many PvE skills instead of "oh here, let's just add random PvE skills that are good." They're always welcome in any Shitterflame, Cryway, or FoCway based groups with or without a tank. Their recharge and energy management can be dealt with, but sadly I don't think some people in this thread are aware of that or know how to use a build more fluidly. With that said, I still think mesmers need less recharge times either with the skills themselves or from a buff to fast casting. Some recharge times are just crazy....crazy. Fast casting helps certain types of skills do more damage and allow you to not waste a skill if an enemy is seconds from dying. 40/40 sets are wonderful and can even be used on mesmers, but you have only a 32 percent chance of half the casting time I believe. Interruption builds are silly, but a good player with a good interrupt on their bar is always welcome. Let's not pretend everything turns out perfectly or that enemies don't do anything as you bash their heads in. Then again, more skills like Shame or Mistrust would be nice or rework all of their interrupt skills? From reading this thread, some people must really fail at their "often" used professions. Go ahead and aim for 1/3 of what others are doing. Basically I think mesmers are a very useful profession, but their diversity and non-button mashing like nature hinders players from playing them well. I don't really believe in gimmick builds. A build is a build and it's a mesmer build if you're using it on a mesmer... Last edited by Cuilan; Dec 24, 2009 at 02:50 AM // 02:50.. |
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Dec 24, 2009, 02:48 AM // 02:48
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#65 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: America -5 GMT
Profession: Me/
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As for a Domination mesmer controlling enemies, that would be pretty awesome. I would love to see something like that, but highly doubt it will happen. As for running around with SF up and not having to think, you clearly have not tanked in DoA or UW lately have you?? As for 40/40 sets, here is some math a guildie of mine worked out awhile back.. Above is a table of the combinations for a 40/40 set. The "S" in the cell mean success and "F" means failure of the effect. So based on the 20% probabilitys you have about a 10 percent chance of 1/2 recharge and 1/2 cast time. You have almost 41% chance of no benefit. THere is about a 4% chance of a 1/4 Recharge Time. |
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Dec 24, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46
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#66 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2006
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But...as predicted the thread is now in suggestion forum where it would disappear from view in a week or so. We need more persistent people constantly opening threads and bumping threads just like the SF whining...maybe then Anet would take notice. |
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Dec 24, 2009, 08:02 AM // 08:02
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#67 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2007
Guild: Still looking
Profession: Rt/
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I wouldn't mind a 4-5% recharge for mesmer skills with each rank in FC
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Dec 24, 2009, 10:13 AM // 10:13
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#68 | ||
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spain
Guild: LHV
Profession: R/N
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The thing is that PvE mesmer needs some buff , not a big one but maybe some shorter recharges , bigger effects or bigger side-effects ( like some AoE ). One of the main reasons is FC , an atrib line that helps almost no players in HM and is more pvp oriented. |
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Dec 24, 2009, 10:18 AM // 10:18
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#69 |
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Oak Ridge Boys Fan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Profession: E/P
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Mesmers are not the optimal choice, but neither are they with rangers in the "why would I possibly want to take you" category. I'll agree that they need work -but I'll take your average mesmer over your average member of other classes anyday.
I don't have to worry about browbeating someone into dropping searing flames, defy pain, endure pain, shadow form, or any of the other random useless junk the meta for most classes revolves around. PUG mesmers tend to have some nice armor ignoring damage (though you see retarded builds, as with all classes). |
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Dec 24, 2009, 10:41 AM // 10:41
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#70 | |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Dec 2009
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On another note... I know it will never happen I wouldn't mind seeing Fast Casting reduce skill recharge times for some interrupt skills when a skill is successfully interrupted. It just seems silly to interrupt a skill, particularly in PvE, when the recharge time on your interrupt is 12-20s and many skills have recharge times that make that laughable (e.g. Searing Flames @2s, Word of Healing @3s). The only time that seems really justifiable in PvE is when you can shut down a whole group (ala Cry of Frustration). |
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Dec 24, 2009, 12:23 PM // 12:23
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#71 | ||||||||||
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: [CRFH]
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Another possibility is to cross-link a bundle of Mesmer skills with Fast Casting, so they have greater effect with a higher Fast Casting attribute. Quote:
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I generally hovor around 7 FC, although it can vary depending on just how many points I can spare from other things. Quote:
That said, though, I can think of Mesmer bars that outperform DB bars, at least in my own style of play. They just don't much resemble the way I visualise a Mesmer behaving. Maybe if you considered all those Ebon Vanguard assassins to be illusions rather than being actually physically present.  Quote:
Personally, I think this is the sort of thing that spells like Empathy and Backfire are supposed to represent - the caster is pushing the target away from performing a certain act. The problem is that Necromancers are so much better at it (plus, people who regularly play in highly-organised teams will tell you reactive hexes just plain suck. This is really true only in teams that are highly organised enough to take full advantage of the suggested alternatives - reactive hexes can work quite well at a PuG level). I also tend to think of skills like Mistrust and Wandering Eye as short-term control effects hoodwinking the target into attacking their allies - frankly, I would love to see the Mesmer having more skills like Clumsiness, Wandering Eye, and Mistrust. Of course, the skill that combines both sides of the coin is, alas, a Necromancer skill (namely Spiteful Spirit). Quote:
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Dec 24, 2009, 03:30 PM // 15:30
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#72 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2009
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As for tweaking FC maybe another visual is in order. Think about HM monsters and their 20 spec attributes. Now think about the Four Horsemen quest in the Underworld. Let's say conservatively you give FC a 2% bump per rank. They already get increased skill recharge (33%-50%) do you really want to give them more? This is of course assuming they ignore the cap...they ignore all the other limitations of the game so why not. I despise PvE skills but if there are going to be fundamental changes that's the safest way to do it. You can't win by buffing things when the opposition gets the same buffs with much bigger numbers. |
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Dec 25, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17
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#73 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: [CRFH]
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Are the Four Horsemen themselves really the main threat in that quest?
Less flippantly - Monsters can be toned back down if necessary. If something serves to restore balance between professions, I say go ahead and do it, and then fix any monster that becomes stupidly broken after it becomes necessary. Plus, we're still assuming a linear relationship. Use a diminishing returns series like casting time has, and we may be able to get a noticeable recharge reduction at the 7-9 attribute levels that most PCs have without it getting too insane at 20. For instance, let's try a scale in which recharge speed (similar to how Air of Disenchantment increases the rate at which enchantments expire) is increased by 4% per rank from 1-5, 3% from 6-10, 2% from 11-15, and 1% from 16-20: FC rank_Increase/rank_Total increase_Recharge time 0__________0%___________0%_________100% 1__________4%___________4%_________96.2% 2__________4%___________8%_________92.6% 3__________4%___________12%________89.3% 4__________4%___________16%________86.2% 5__________4%___________20%________83.3% 6__________3%___________23%________81.3% 7__________3%___________26%________79.4% 8__________3%___________29%________77.5% 9__________3%___________32%________75.8% 10_________3%___________35%________74.1% 11_________2%___________37%________73.0% 12_________2%___________39%________71.9% 13_________2%___________41%________70.9% 14_________2%___________43%________69.9% 15_________2%___________45%________69.0% 16_________1%___________46%________68.5% 17_________1%___________47%________68.0% 18_________1%___________48%________67.6% 19_________1%___________49%________67.1% 20_________1%___________50%________66.7% As you can see, while especially high levels of Fast Casting do receive a payoff, the actual increase in the rate of casting spells at 20 is not really that much higher than at more modest levels of investment - thus, Mesmer players in general are able to benefit at a comparable level to HM monsters. Last edited by draxynnic; Dec 25, 2009 at 07:37 AM // 07:37.. |
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Dec 25, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55
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#74 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wrocław, Poland
Guild: Midnight Mayhem
Profession: Me/
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mesmers are cool on AP, on water nukes/snares, as fast cast ROJ/ress... just not as a mesmer. the topic itself turned into 'are mesmers underpowered in pve and why you think so'. the topic subject is, though, that they need a pve buff and we might stick to it. if you think mesmers are overpowered (haha...), you're free to state it, sure, just don't follow the guy's posts. i suggest to focus on actual ideas of buffs and tweaks ANet could do to mesmers that would fix them. there is the test krewe running and they do consider what we think - but they prefer actual ideas rather than 'please fix it QQ!!!!!'. so i encourage to share your ideas how mesmers could be buffed without breaking the game even more (aka giving other classes more advantage than mesmers). the first thing is to do something with fast casting line. it's nearly completely useless. doesn't really matter in pve if my VoR lands 1/2s faster or not. interrupts are generally 1/4s anyway and they're darn hard to run on high ping, while heroes can handle that aspect very well. the only moment when fc is really useful is ressing dead members of the party during combat - but i think it isn't what mesmers were made for. changing the whole attribute line is rather unrealistic and might break pvp side of the game, where mesmers can truly shine and control the battle. it would just need a lot of more work. so, instead, we need something like links, similar to mirror of ice or there's nothing to fear. we need to tweak some skills so that other classes won't benefit so much from being a secondary mesmer while being a primairy mesmer would become at least of some use in the pve. the easiest tweaks can be done unto pve-only mesmer skills: cry of pain and ether nightmare. i would like to see CoP buffed back to deal the damage it used to deal, but requiring a high fast casting attribute for that. like: Cry of Pain Spell. Interrupt target foe's skill. If that foe was suffering from a Mesmer Hex, that foe and all foes in the area take 5...25 damage and 10 more damage for every 2 points in your Fast Casting attribute. the numbers can be changed of course, balanced out etc - the general idea is to give mesmers back their main aoe damaging spell while making it unable to others, especially e/me that used to run it a lot what probably caused the original nerf. i believe the e-cost and recharge time is fine. as for ether nightmare - it still can has some synergy. either some energy gain for points invested in the fast casting line or longer duration. i'd still prefer an energy regen option, so: Ether Nightmare Hex Spell. Target foe loses 5...7...8 Energy. For each point of Energy lost in this way, that foe and all foes in the area suffer -1 Health degeneration for 10 seconds. You gain 1 Energy for each 2 points of Fast Casting attribute above 2. so on 6 fc you'd gain 2e back, on 16 fc you'd gain 7e back. there's also a lot of possibilities how to link other skills to fc. i would strongly suggest, however, a pvp/pve split to every skill tweaked and a separate balancing of pve and pvp version. for example, all mantras could last longer or give back more energy/protect better with points in fc. channeling could be capped at 10s without fc and lenghtening for 5s for every point in fc. one of the most needed changes, imho, could be done with the ether signet. cut it's recharge and link it with fc: Ether Signet - 1s cast, 25s recharge Signet. If you have less than 5...9...10 Energy, gain 2...5...7 Energy and 2 Energy more for each two points in Fast Casting above 4. again, the numbers can be balanced out - i haven't thought it in-depthly yet, those are just raw ideas so far. still, something more specific. i think, imho, that there are three major issues with mesmers in pve. 1. several skills have the same or similar effect. there's at least a dozen of interrupts, while maybe five are used in pve. this limits the general amount of useful skills. a lot of degen, including energy degen, which is usually useless in most pve builds and places (or it's just inferior to anything else). 2. the elite skills. just two mesmer elites are widely useful in pve - VoR and E-Surge. still, they're mostly inferior to other me/any builds, like AP callers or water snarers. other elites are just useless against mobs - you need damage in pve, not e-degen. they're either too pvp-oriented or have too long recharge/cost what makes them useless. 3. general recharge time. 30s for a chaos storm, 20s for a pve backfire, 25s (and 15e!) for shatter enchantment? or 45s for ether signet? some solutions: 1. change pve versions of some skills, so that they're not copies (or almost copies) of five other. remove most e-degen skills from pve and change them with something else. 2. balance out the elites recharges and effects - pve needs more specified outcomes. a good example here is panic - it's annoying when a mob casts it on a player, but 25e cost and 10s recharge makes it completely, insanely useless, not only as an elite, but even as a skill in general. 3. cut the recharge times of spells, while either linking their effects to fc line or cutting a bit their power. if i can use a spell for 10e once in 20s and deal 50dmg, i'd prefer to have all three numbers cut in half, so that i don't have to wand the mobs for half of the battle. now, share your ideas :3 |
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Dec 25, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58
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#75 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spain
Guild: LHV
Profession: R/N
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Scale skills with 2 att lines is a good idea , they made it sometimes but it seems to me that they refuse to do it more often :/
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Dec 25, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28
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#76 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2009
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If they want to give Mesmers a buff in line with something like what Rits got I would be all for it. The difference to the monster side of the game is barely noticeable outside of a few groups that were annoying anyways. I however strongly disagree with the notion of buffing into orbit and worrying about collateral damage later. I think your table is well thought out but how is giving every HM Mesmer in the game free Mantra of Recovery really a good idea? As for my own ideas...I would like to see more party synergy along the lines of Fevered Dreams. This of course requires players to recognize first and foremost that Mesmers have a useful role in party formation. They shine in a limited environment (see PvP) which is why they are lacking in PvE. That doesn't mean they need a top to bottom overhaul just that their skills need to take into account, now 4+ years in, that PvE uses grossly inflated numbers and large volumes of enemies. PvE has become about either bypassing targets entirely to get to the goal or producing the biggest yellow numbers in the shortest period of time. If you can't contribute tangibly to either one of those goals with a real Mesmer bar then chances are good you must either play a gimmick to get a group or sit out. Nerfing CoP did a lot of harm to the second scenario, at the minimum they should consider direct damage changes and linking to FC as drkn suggested. |
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Dec 25, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51
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#77 | ||||
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Agreed entirely, I would post some of the more radical changes I'd like to see, but I don't think redoing fast casting is going to happen at this stage in the game. The most likely thing is just minor adjustments to skills. Quote:
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The 45s recharge time on this is too long to see use in PvE bars. Unlike, say, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Ether Signet is only used after you've blown all your energy (ie, at the ened of an encounter), whereas GoLE is used at the start of an encounter and is recharging all throughout it. Some suggestions for PvE skill splits:  5e, 1ct, 5rt Spell. For each point of Energy Target Foe has, that foe takes 1...3...3 damage. 50% failure chance unless Domination Magic 5 or higher. Maximum Damage 75 [Or maybe Maximum Damage 40 +5 per 2 ranks in Fast Casting]. Rationale: The "target foe regains all energy" clause is too big of a drawback for this to be used. Furthermore, by only causing damage based on energy regained the skill is limited to being used at the end of an encounter when enemies are probably already close to being dead. Proposed changes reverses this by making it more useful as a leading attack and less useful at the end of the encounter.  5e, 2ct, 12rt Hex Spell. (5...17...20 seconds.) Target foe takes 35...119...140 damage whenever it uses an elite skill. Rationale: The energy loss effect is basically useless in PvE, and the single-use effect makes it even worse. Single-use limitation should be dropped altogether, and causing damage makes as much sense in the theme of this spell as energy loss does, but the damage effect might actually prove useful.  10e, 1ct, 8rt Hex Spell. For 6 seconds, the next time target foe uses a skill, that skill is interrupted and is disabled for +5...11...13 seconds. Rationale: Remove the silly twitch interrupt mechanism, and reduce the cooldown so that this skill becomes a Diversion-lite.  5e, 1ct, 20rt Spell. Deals 5...12...14 damage each second (10 seconds). Hits foes adjacent to target's initial location. Causes 1...6...7 Energy loss to foes casting a spell. Rationale: This spell needs a lower recharge straight off the bat.  Move to Fast Casting Attribute 5e, 1ct, 10rt Hex Spell. Target foe has -1...3...3 Energy degeneration and you have +1...3...3 Energy regeneration (5...9...10 seconds). Rationale: This could be a decent skill if you drop the lose all energy clause. The casting time is also contrary given the desired usage of this spell - It's a denial/emanagement hex so you want to put it into play quickly at the start of an encounter (and it only lasts so long as the enemy is alive or the hex is active, so potentially quite short). Shortening the casting time and reducing the cooldown so it is maintainable would make this a viable skill for energy denial/management. Alternatively, drop the idea of this as a hex at all and make it a non-elite version of Lyssa's Aura.  5e, 2ct, 15rt Hex Spell. (6 seconds.) Target foe's next spell is interrupted and you steal 5...12...14 Energy. No effect unless this foe's spell targets one of your allies. Rationale: 25 second recharge time? Really?  10e, 2ct, 15rt Hex Spell. (6 seconds.) Target foe's next spell is interrupted and you steal 5...12...14 Energy. No effect unless this foe's spell targeted one of its allies. Rationale: 30 second recharge time? Really?  10e, 2ct, 15rt Hex Spell. (6 seconds.) The next spell that target foe casts on one of your allies is interrupted and deals 15...63...75 damage to target and nearby foes. Rationale: I could live with the 20s recharge time as long as the effect was actually to interrupt the spell. Unlike Shame and Guilt, the effect on fail/interrupt is actually useful here.  10e, 1ct, 20rt Spell. Deals 15...63...75 damage. Deals 15...63...75 damage to foes near your target if this foe was near a summoned creature. This skill recharges twice as fast if it hits a summoned creature. Rationale: I would much rather see this skill useful in a wider variety of situations. Drop the overall cooldown and remove the silly instant recharge effect. I might even drop the "recharges twice as fast" clause if it starts being problematic again, as long as the skill can make it into a bar.  10e, 2ct, 20rt Hex Spell. (30 seconds.) Target foe and adjacent foes have 25% chance to miss. You gain 1...3...3 Energy whenever hexed foes miss. Rationale: Never seen this as a particularly effective skill, particularly since it effectively requires you to combo it with something else if you want to get any benefit from the secondary effect. At the very least the casting time needs to be sped up and the energy cost needs to come down, if not giving it the AoE effect. |
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Dec 25, 2009, 07:21 PM // 19:21
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#78 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wrocław, Poland
Guild: Midnight Mayhem
Profession: Me/
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@up
everything seems fine and workable but the power lock. we don't need copies of spells. diversion is enough, imho. |
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Dec 26, 2009, 03:08 AM // 03:08
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#79 | |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Dec 2009
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The suggested change to Power Lock could tie down several skills on one foe by itself -- The additional recharge time it adds is low compared to Diversion but should generally be enough to keep the interrupted skill down until that monster dies (what monsters are living more than recharge+10s?). Making it spammable would just mean you can lock down a skill on more monsters, or lock down one monster more effectively. I suppose another approach I considered suggesting would be, 10e, 1ct, 15rt Hex Spell. For 6 seconds, the next time target foe uses a skill, target foe and all foes in the area are interrupted and any skill interrupted is disabled for +5...11...13 seconds. or maybe, 10e, 1ct, 15rt Hex Spell. For 15 seconds, the next time target foe uses a spell, that spell is interrupted and the next (0...2...3) spells of the same attribute are interrupted. For each additional spell interrupted you lose 5 energy or Power Lock ends. This actually makes it more like Power Block (probably what they were going for anyway given the names and effects here). I'd really like to see Stolen Speed get made into something useful, given it's an Elite Fast Casting, but that doesn't seem likely. Adding a Hex-to-Interrupt effect on Power Return would be pretty nice too but I don't know how viable that is without completely rethinking the skill's role as a spammable interrupt for heroes. |
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Dec 26, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32
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#80 | |||
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: [CRFH]
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They're "best of a bad lot" skills, no more. The Mesmer elites I use the most are probably Energy Drain and Echo (and those only when I can afford to be substandard, generally when skillcapping in NM), although I've been experimenting with mandragor-inna-can builds lately. Quote:
4. Monsters generally having immunity to a lot of things Mesmers do. Not sure whether that can be fixed at this stage, but it would be nice to see some of those immunities boss monsters have turn into resistances instead (maybe Diverting Impossible Odds, for instance, for nearly a minute would be too cheap, but if you could Divert it for an extra ten seconds, that would serve to at least slow him down a bit.) Regarding Spiritual Pain - a simple reversion might be a good start. The problem it was causing was in PvP, if I remember rightly, it's just that the idea of a split hadn't been hit on then. |
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